new guy

[آفاق]

[salam[/quote]

Did you mean very implicit???? cause I am confused now.

yes, i meant if the profit didnt make it very explisit, that will be for the reason I mentiond above. If it was very explicit, moslem schools (mathaheb) will not have doubt about it but what happend is that it was not very explisit. Maybe he mentioned it at some ocation, but if he really want every one to know it clearly, he would have said it clearly and no one will have doubt about it but it seems that this didn't happen.

[quote="محمد النفس الزكية"]
as you said, it's your own justification, but i think most of the Zaidism believe that the prophet choose Imam Ali to be the khalefah clearly , also Qura'an mention Imam Ali to be the Khlaifah on ayat alwlayah ..

you said by yourself, most and not all. if the issue is 100% clear you would say all the zaidism. so this means there is still doubt about it. and this is what I am saying. the profit tried to recomend Imam Ali in many occation but he didnt say it very clearly for reasons. .

By the way, i am not sure how can I do the quoting> . can some one let me know how to do it well.??

[آفاق]

slamz!


--Well, didn't almost all of the caliphs after him (as) appoint the next caliph in advance? Abu Bakr appointed Umar, Muawiyah appointed his son Yazid, etc. With all due respect to you sister, maybe this isn't good reasoning.
!T

It's true brother that those whom you mentioned did appointed khalifa after them but with all due respect they are after all normal humanbeings. they are not profits and we are not asked to follow what they do or what they say. they are practicing wht they think is right or what they want to do but it doesnt meant that what they did was always right. If you see Imam Ali, he did not appoint Imam Hasan after him and people gave him the bai3a. So we need to be very careful of whom we should follow and what are the resources, texts and deeds that we should trust or consider right>

We need to be critical to the history and not to accept everything as the way it was dedicated to us. we should take facts then make our analyses otherwise, we may make many mistakes in our judgement
>
I hope i made my point clear. and I hope you enjoy your membership in this forum.

[Talib Ali]

salamz!

Thanx for your reply ya ukhti!

I mentioned that to imply that if the Prophet (saws) didn't appoint his successor to establish a sunnah that those after him should not appoint someone after them and allow the people to vote, this was ineffective because those after him appointed their own successors anyway. That's why I said that.

I might be mistaken, but didn't Imam Ali appoint Hasan as his successor? I thought that he did in his will (wasiya) and his last statement.

I agree with you about history, sis!
I just recently started reading Tarikh at-Tabari and it is very eye-opening!

yours,

T

[الامير الصنعاني]

Pardon me brothers and sisters but I think I will have to interfere your discussion.
Sister Afag
What you said is actually one of Ahal Alsunnah evidence that naming the Imams is not asl (main part) on the Deen and this destroys the Imami Shia’s mathahibs because their whole mathahib are based on the idea of naming the Imams.
Ahl Alsunnah said
If Koran didn’t name any imams neither the prophet then how can we say that believing in the so and so 12 Imams or 7 Imams is essential in Islam.
This is a very strong valid argument that Imamez couldn’t solve. Well some of them solved this problem by saying That the Koran actually mentioned the name of the Imamas however the Sahabah deleted those verses and altered the Koran.

Sister Afag
The prophet peace be upon him and his family didn’t clearly name the khlifah after him because simply naming the khalifah is wrong.
What should happen is there must be a (Shora) between the best scholars of the Ummah and those scholars should decide and chose the Imam.
And that’s what I believe happened after the prophet
Abu Baker made shora with some of the Sahabah and they agree on Omar.
Omar did the same thing and the only difference is that Abu Baker did the Shora before his death during the last days of his life, Omar in the other hand told the Sahabah to do the Shora after his death.
So
I believe it’s a mistake to say that the 4 khalifa appointed and name a khlifa to lead the Muslims after them.

By the way the western democratic system is not the Islamic Shora System as a matter of fact, the western democratic system is totally away from the Shora system.
One of the main differences is that, the western democratic system give all the people the right to choose the leader of the Ummah regardless whether the person is a muslim or not, a scholar or not a good or a bad person.
And because the majority of the people are not scholars and not a good muslims they can be tricked and it is so easy to steal or buy their voices and that’s actually what happens everywhere. In the Arab world the leader use the money or force to make the people choose them, in the west the leaders use the Media to trick the people and convince them to choose them.

Sorry fo interpputing ur discussion and wish u all the best
Best regards
Wa alslaam khitam

[Talib Ali]

salamz!

no, you are not interupting! This is a public forum, right?

I'm confused. You wrote:
"And that’s what I believe happened after the prophet Abu Baker made shora with some of the Sahabah and they agree on Omar."
--Didn't Abu bakr choose Omar himself? I don't remember a shura being used to select Omar even though the shura selected Abu Bakr. Not only that, but Imam Ali (as) chose his son Hasan (as) as his successor. So, evidently, it was the habit of at least 2 of the 4 caliphs to choose his successor. That's why many sunni scholars say that it is valid for a caliph to pick his successor without a shura.
The Umayyads, Abbasids, Fatimids, Ottomans, and even the Zaydi Imams (if i'm not mistaken) chose their succesors.

your brother,

Talib

[Nader]

salamz!

and even the Zaydi Imams (if i'm not mistaken) chose their succesors.

Talib

I think you're mistaken..Zaydi doesn't allow to Califa to select a succesors. However it has happened with some of them and they were plaimed.

thanks

[Talib Ali]

salamz!

Thanks for the correction!

How are Zaydi imams elected?

T

[Nader]

Through the 14 conditions of Imama
have you heard about them??

[Talib Ali]

No.

Could you elaborate?

Also, is it a shura that decides the imama of a Zaydi Imam?

Thanks!

T

[الامير الصنعاني]

Brother Talib
In Abu Baker last days before choosing Omar, Abu Baker made Shora with some of the Sahabah
1- Abd-Alruhman bin A'oof
2- Othman Bin A'fan
He asked these two Sahabah what they think of Omar.
and both accepted Omar
After that Abu Baker gathered the people and he told them I have choosen Omar to be your Kalhifah do you agree and they agreed.

=====
Regarding Imam Ali
as far as I know, He didnt choose Imam Hasan. After Imam's Ali death the Sahabah chose AL-Hasan to be the Khalifah.
====
Allah knows the best

[Nader]

I know them in arabic and i am afraid i cannot translate them very well

[Talib Ali]

salamz!

That's ok brother Nader! Insha-Allah, my Arabic will get better.

Thanks for your comments Br. Amir!
Br. Amir wrote:
"In Abu Baker last days before choosing Omar, Abu Baker made Shora with some of the Sahabah
1- Abd-Alruhman bin A'oof
2- Othman Bin A'fan
He asked these two Sahabah what they think of Omar. and both accepted Omar
After that Abu Baker gathered the people and he told them I have choosen Omar to be your Kalhifah do you agree and they agreed."
--This doesn't really show that Shura selected Umar. Remember, "shura" means that a group selects the caliph. It doesn't mean that they say if a selection is okay. You even say "Abu Bakr...before choosing Omar" which means that the choice was Abu Bakr's and not the shura's. There's a big difference between a person choosing something before asking people if they agree and allowing the people to choose something. For example, if I ask you to choose between an apple or orange that is different from me taking you to a store and telling you to choose whatever fruit you want.

In regards to Imam Ali choosing Imam Hasan, I believe it is well known that he chose his son upon his death. If it was up to the sahabah, they probably would've chosen more senior companions rather than al-Hasan. Many senior companions were still alive at that time. In fact, some sunni ulema use this as a proof that a caliph can select his son as a caliph after him.

And Allah Knows best!

T

[أحمد الشامي]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I've read all your interesting comments...but some of you guys are getting way out of the topic... we should first focus on Imam Ali issue, and then move on to Imam Alhassan and Democracy programs.

The issue of imam Ali as the imam after the Prophet is very controversial. There are three parties that have different opinions. Group one say that the prophet assigned Imam Ali as an Imam after him and he say it Literarly in different Hadiths and Tafseers from the Quran. Group Two Say that the prophet gave the Imam after him some symbolic and metaphoric discreptions and these discreptions only fall on imam Ali and no one else but him. They also argue that Imam Ali was the best person to handel it and that he was the best companion of the prophet. Group Three argue that the prophet never mentioned such a thing about Imam Ali and that he is just a normal companion like all others, and that he is not the best companion, and since Abu Baker is better than him and has a higher class than him (as they argue) he deserves it more. They also argue that the prophet said that Abo Baker is the right person after him.

Each Party believs that Shura always exist in their accounts. BUT they also diagree and the way it is formed. Group one argue that the shura can only be among the descendents of the prophet and they can form a commity that would select the right person to take the role. Group two argue that shura can be held between public to choose the right person (prefferably from the descendents) but if not available, then the community and people would go for another guy who is elegible to take care of them. Of course, the priority is always for the descendent, but if it is impossible to find a qualified one, then we should seek others, and descendents can always be good advisors. Group three argue that shura is between all muslims, but prefferably from QURAISH, but if there were no Quraishians, then anyone from the Muslim public who is qualified. Of course, by saying any Muslim, this means that anybody with different tactics and ideas can still role as long as he is a muslim.

Now, I know that some of you would disagree with me on the way i listed my ideas, but in general these are the main groups that always have arguments. Groups ONE AND TWO exist among Zaidies themselves and each one has a different arguments against the other, but for them it is not a big deal, as long as you believe that Imam Ali is the imam after the prophet and that his descendents always have the opportunity to lead. They agree with each other on the Big Picture. Group three is the one that has different opinions about the layout.

I consider myself as a Group two follower.

Since you already started your topic, you can continue, but if there is any chance for me to stick my nose, please tell me.

I just wanted to clearfy things and tell you my stand point. From here we can move on and proceed.

I agree with Sister Afaq that we should us historical facts as part of our reasoning and logic.

Brother Talib, about the qualifications of Imam in Zaidesm... Imam Hadi mentioned 14, and some of them are (memorize the Quran, be Alm Mujtahd, be brave, not blind, not handicaped...etc) but on my opinion they shouldn't be applied on this era, because we have medical technologies and easier ways to communicate with people..

I think that we should remember that we are in the 21st century, and we should adapt to the new changes in the world (not as followers) but (as inventors and leaders) so that we can suceed. Becuase some of the arguments about Imamah in general are not valid nowadays and it is kind of impossible to develop an Imamite Country with all the rules... So we have to go and focus on our 2nd best choices in order to benefit our Umah and communities and spread Islam more effeciently.

Thanks all

Ahmed Alshami