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 عنوان المشاركة: Zaydia View on Jabariya(determinism) & Qadariya (free wil
مشاركةمرسل: الجمعة إبريل 16, 2010 12:55 am 
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اشترك في: الخميس أكتوبر 19, 2006 10:08 pm
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What is the Zaydia View on Free Will and Determinism ?

Free Will = Qadariya
Determinism = Jabariya

I have a tradition from Sunni literature which cites Imam Ali (as)Once a nomad came to Ali ibn abi Talib, enquiring about freewill and determinism?
Ali ibn abi Talib asked him to stand up then asked him to lift one leg, which he did, then asked him to lift the other one, which obviously he couldn't do. At this Juncture Ali Ibn abi Talib told him that this is how much freewill there is and this is how much determinism there is.
Get it? if not then stand up and lift one leg and try to lift the other in this position. (see what He meant.)

Do Zaydia accept the above nql (tradition) ?

Also if you can post some ahadith from the Imams on this issue it would really be helpful.


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مشاركةمرسل: الأحد إبريل 18, 2010 1:01 pm 
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اشترك في: الأحد مارس 14, 2010 12:24 pm
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as salamu alaykum Br Mystic!

Thank you for your question!

As for the report you mentioned, I never heard it from Imam Ali, alayhi salam, but i have heard that Imam as-Sadiq, alayhi salam, did that. There is a different account on the authority of Imam Ali. You can find this is books like Tarikh ad-Dimashq. The report is as follows:

An old man (shaykh) asked: “O Amīr al-Muminīn, how does the Decree (al-Qaďa) and Predestination (al-Qadr) urge us to go [to Syria]?” He replied: “Woe to you! You imagine a destiny that is unavoidable and a decree that is final! If it were so, there would have been no sense in divine promises or threats, nor [would there be a question] of reward or punishment. You did not come to the imams from Allah to be a sinner…But Allah, the Exalted, has ordered them to choose the good with Free-will and to refrain from evil with caution. He is disobeyed but not because of [His] overpowering [them to do so]. He is obeyed but not under force. He does not make resignation (tafwīď) possible. He did not create the heavens, the earth, and the amazing signs you see in them in vain! {That is the opinion of those who disbelieve. Woe unto those who disbelieve, from the Fire!} (Q. 38:27)”
The old man then asked: “O Amīr al-Muminīn, what is the Qaďa and Qadr that brought us to travel and venture out?” He replied: “That refers to the command of Allah and His ruling.” He then recited: “{Your Lord decreed (qaďa) that you worship none but Him…} (Q. 17:23).”

The report continues:

“O Amīr al-Muminīn, inform me about Predestination.” He replied: “It is a dark path, do not travel it.” [The man repeated]: “O Amīr al-Muminīn, inform me about Predestination.” He replied: “It is a deep ocean, do not enter it.” [The man repeated]: “O Amīr al-Muminīn, inform me about Predestination.” He replied: “It is a secret of Allah, do not attempt to unveil it.” [The man repeated]: “O Amīr al-Muminīn, inform me about Predestination.” He replied:
“O questioner, did Allah create you by His will or by your will?” [The man] answered: “Of course, by His will!” ['Ali] then asked: “Does He use you how He wills or how you will?” [The man] answered: “Of course, how He wills!” He then asked: “Will He raise you how He wills or how you will?” [The man] answered: “Of course, how He wills!”
['Ali] continued: “O questioner, do you not ask Allah for success (al-’āfiya)?” He replied: “Yes.” He asked: “From what do you ask success: afflictions that afflict you or other than that?” He replied: “[I ask for success] from the afflictions that afflict me.”
['Ali] continued: “O questioner, you say: ‘There is no strength and power except by’ whom?” He replied: “…except by Allah, the Exalted, the Great.” ['Ali] asked: “Do you know its proper exegesis?” He replied: “Teach me the proper exegesis that Allah taught you, O Amīr al-Muminīn.” ['Ali] said: “Verily, its exegesis is that Allah does not enable obedience. Nor does there exist with Him any other power in disobedience to Allah towards these two things, except by Allah.”
“O questioner, Do you possess a will along with Allah, does your will supersede His, or do you will outside of Allah’s will? If you say that you will outside of Allah’s will, it would be sufficient regarding the will of Allah. If you were to claim that your will supersedes that of Allah, then you’re saying that your power and will are greater than the power and will of Allah. If you claim that you will along with Allah, then you are saying that you share with Allah in His will.”

Hope this helps!


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مشاركةمرسل: الأحد إبريل 18, 2010 3:58 pm 
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اشترك في: الأحد مارس 14, 2010 12:24 pm
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I realize that i did not answer all of your questions!

Regarding specific hadiths on the matter, you have the narration i cited by Imam Ali, alayhi salam, as well as the one you cited by Imam Jafar as-Sadiq, alayhi salam.

The Zaydi view is that although certain things r predetermined (like place of birth, time of death, etc), disobedience/obedience and disbelief/belief arent forced upon the slave. Our imams have written extentisively on the topic insomuch that books have been written to refute the Jabarites and Qadarites.

The view of the imams of the Prophets Household, alayhim salam, on this matter is so well known that a statement has been coined: "Freewill is Hashimi and coercion (Jabr) is Umawi." This is because the Umayyads used the concept of jabr to justify their masacres of the Prophets progeny. This was noted by Shibli No'mani in his text on the development of theology__sorry i dont know the title. A conversation between Zayn al Abideen, alayhi salam, and al-Hajjaj (I think) took place in which the latter said to the former: "Didnt Allah kill Ali (meaning Ali Akbar)?!", and the imam responded: "If it as you said, then Allah killed Uthman!" The view of the imams on this issue is clear.

A difference is that according to the Zaydis, the Qadariyya refers to those who believe in predestination (qadr), not those who believe in freewill. So in Zaydi literature, the Qadariyya are synonomous with the Jabriyya.

Hope this helps!


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مشاركةمرسل: الاثنين إبريل 19, 2010 8:43 am 
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اشترك في: الخميس أكتوبر 19, 2006 10:08 pm
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Jazakallah bro!.
We really need these books to be translated in English.
I`m not really satisfied with the Ashaarii beliefs, and sadly most sunni support this creed. There is no doubt that the Mutazilla beliefs were much superior. However, the Mutazillah died, and they are unable to defend themselves. As for Zaydia their literature is not well know.
Anyway, I`ve heard that the Al Majma Al Fiqh Imam Zayd bin Ali (as) has a entire chapter against the Murjia sect. Are you aware of this. If you can please post the text here. If you want unable to translate it then just post the arabic. I will get another brother to work on the translation

Also, I realized I confused the two terms. Jazakallah for the correction..


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مشاركةمرسل: الاثنين إبريل 19, 2010 8:26 pm 
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اشترك في: الأحد مارس 14, 2010 12:24 pm
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salams habibi!

Yeah, between you and I, we are in the process of completing a book in English about Zaydi aqiida. It looks at many theological issues: the Vision of Allah, the eternal stay of the Muslim disobedient in the hellfire, etc. from the perspective of the Zaydi imams. It examines the intellectual and textual proofs of our opponents and provides intellectual and textual proofs for our position. It will be the first book of its kind, inshaAllah. It is in the process of being drafted and edited. By the help of Allah, it will be published soon. Just make dua for us that we are able to do so! Some of the translations we cited are from this text.

Regarding the monopoly of thought by the Asharis, it is unfortunate that the Mu'tazili and others have been castigated. I remember for the longest time being taught that Mu'tazilis only use Hellenism and do not focus on textual proofs.

We are currently working on translations of the imams' books.

I didnt hear about the chapter in the Majmu' dealing with the Murji'a. We'll check on that and see about translating it, inshaAllah. There are some theological texts attributed to Imam Zayd. We're currently working on his text Kitab al-Iman which discusses the issue of manzila bayna manzilatayn and other issues from the perspective of the Qur'an.

Any questions, dont hesitate!


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مشاركةمرسل: الاثنين إبريل 19, 2010 11:08 pm 
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اشترك في: الخميس أكتوبر 19, 2006 10:08 pm
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That's great news. A lot of people also accuse the Zaydia of adopting views from the Mutazilla. If you can also include a refutation on that, it will be great. Also another great idea would be to post some English lectures on youtube. All I see on youtube is literature in Arabic. Syed Ninowy has done a lot to spread the teachings of Ahlul Bayt in the West. However, the Wahabia have given him death threats which forced him to slow down a bit..


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مشاركةمرسل: الثلاثاء إبريل 27, 2010 4:41 pm 
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اشترك في: الأحد مارس 14, 2010 12:24 pm
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They are threatening Sh. Ninowy?! Ignorance knows no bounds!

About the Zaydis borrowing from the Mu'tazilis, this is a stretch because although the Mu'tazilis and the imams of the Ahl al Bayt were all in the same study circles, it cannot be said that the zaydis borrowed from the Mu'tazilis. If anything, the Mu'tazilis borrowed from the Imams of Ahl al-Bayt, upon them be peace!

There have been instances where the imams, like al-Hadi (alayhi as salam), instructed their followers to study with the Mu'tazilis. But this was simply to learn their methods of argumentation, not to learn doctrine. For example, I met a brother in Sanaa studying az-Zamakhshari's tafsir, Kashshaf. This wasn't to take doctrine from it but rather to take some methodology from it.

Regarding English lectures, :) that would be great to have some English-speaking Zaydis that can articulate the madhhab! But as you mentioned, the problem is that everything is confined to Arabic. However, I did hear of some young ulema learning English to do da'wah. We'll see...

Until then, one can listen to Sh Ninowy or people like Imam Muhammad al-Asi. I find that his views are similar to the Zaydiyya. Some of the 12er speakers are also very articulate when talking about topics we agree on, but you cant accept all what they say!


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مشاركةمرسل: الخميس إبريل 29, 2010 7:19 am 
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اشترك في: الخميس أكتوبر 19, 2006 10:08 pm
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Yes, he has received death threats from the Wahabia. These filthy people have so much hatred against scholars who promote the Ahlul Bayt (as).
To know more about Syed Ninowy's background ask the Zaydi Shaykh Hamoud bin Abbas about him. You may get more details.
As for Imam Al Asi this man is banned from Saudi Arabia for his views. Also the majority of the Sunni community disassociate from him because his views against the enemies of Ahlul Bayt (as).

I wish the Sunni world had more of these type of scholars. However we don't sadly.

As for 12rs they are on the opposite extreme of the Wahabia. They are filled with so much hatred that when they form opinions they loose their objective. Just take Ibn Tamiyah for example. This man was brilliant scholar. However, when he started refuting the 12r Shia he has so much hatred against them that his views shifted toward Nisabism.


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